Mercedes thinks it will need '6 to 12 months' to catch up with Red Bull

@44 It's like you're from yesterday. So many years of domination clouded your rational thinking. Can it be this way: let F1 allow RB to dominate as much as MB allowed. Do you agree to that? Do you know how many years has it been? Yes, now it would be soon. Just hope so...

I didn't dominate for years. You are in no position to make judgements on my rationality. You couldn't even rationalise Bahrain. Now you want me to agree to some childish premise. Why would I agree to that? What makes you think I wanted Mercedes to dominate like they did in the first place?

@44 So, right away, I say that I am not objective, because as a non-sympathizer of MB and Lewis, I was not for them, because from the beginning there was speculation about their engine and its abnormal power and superiority over the competition, and how it all came to this. Where there's smoke there's fire, but it doesn't matter what is correct and what isn't. They did what was best for them and succeeded. That's why I'm glad it's over, and that's why I hope it doesn't happen again so soon. Of course it doesn't work, but those are my wishes, and more like a joke, just so it doesn't be MB. He wouldn't feel the same way about RB as he did about MB, because I never liked them, but now I'm saying that he wouldn't like it. Even if it happens, I would be interested in breaking the record from Lewis. FIA will certainly go to reduce the advantage of RB, we can know that for sure from experience. That's how it works. If not before, it will certainly happen in 2026. Everyone wants attractive races, for the cars to be equal, but in the end for their driver to win. It's like that with everyone, not just you. It's a better option for everyone, because then the other side can't attribute success to the car and not the driver, right? I know they would rather dominate anyone else but RB. It's the same with me, everyone can except MB and Lewis. Maybe it's not exactly the same, because I don't mind George winning some races. To become a champion, he must go to another team.? It's not literally good for me that it's hard for you, but that's in sports jargon. I'm glad you're not comfortable, but not literally, of course I have nothing against you. He wishes you the best of luck in your private life, except in F1. I know you would be worried if RB falls, that's why I'm enjoying this moment, because I waited for MB to fall. That's the reverse of your situation, I should understand that. Everything that came before, the 2021 season has changed everything. All these disputed situations, which we look at and interpret completely differently. So it is normal that tensions have increased tremendously and everything has been raised to a level that many times crosses the borders. To be honest, 2021 is the first year I watched with my daughter, who totally fell in love with F1 and became a fan, and as she started rooting for Max, I fell in love with him, even though I didn't like him before. That's why that season is so special to me, and that's why I wanted him to win. As I get older, I appreciate excellence, I don't suffer that it has to be any team, even if they are bad. Those days of cheering for Ferrari are behind me. Again troll, I told you what I thought about it, and even wrote you a wording of how I see it. Please do not. Otherwise, I try not to gloat, I don't do that, even though I can think it, but I don't want to write it. So much poison was spilled by quite a few of them (MBfan), so I was glad in the end, really. I told you too, that I was even glad how it ended. I'm not hiding anything, I said it a long time ago, it's true. Don't take it personally. I have nothing against you, but if you enjoy F1, that means Lewis wins, and I don't want that. You didn't hurt me with anything, but it's on a sports level. I don't wish you any misfortune, of course. I see it the same way as you, as you once said, that you want an accident RB in reliability. Just that. Haha, how am I writing this comment to you without first reading yours, here is the piece where you got me. Well, if you think you are, we can cut communication. If you think so, you do what you think is right. I was referring to other people on another forum, because I only started actively writing here last year. Greetings to you too.

"Since we are in the second year of RB's dominance, if they are the best, I have nothing against it lasting a few more years. Then Ferrari could have a couple of years of dominance, and after that it could finally have Mclaren, so let's have Williams too. " So you were ok with a few years of Mercedes dominance too then. Cool. Unfortunately F1 doesn't revolve around your tastes and you certainly don't get to write a script like that where teams almost get to take it in turns to be dominant. This is not how F1 works. What if RBR dominate as many years as Mercedes? Will you feel the same we as you did for Mercedes? 1 team dominating isn't good for F1 no matter who is doing it. Predictable race results are not ideal. I want RB's dominance to end because I dislike Red Bull. That's part of the reason. I'm sure you could work that one out for yourself though. The other part is that as the FIA took steps to stop Mercedes' dominance because of financial and profit reasons (again, also why they installed a new 'champion' - to invited interest back into F1), then the FIA needs to recognise that the same will happen again with RB dominating. Or let's pretend it was McLaren dominating...same thing. So if Merc had to be cut back by the FIA then Red Bull should be given the same treatment and now the FIA should know not to leave it for so long next time. So yes, Merc fans are in a better position to want this because their teams dominance was dismantled by the FIA. If the FIA don't want dominance because it harms ticket sales and the image of F1, then they need to stop Red Bull for those same reasons. Regardless that it's their 2nd year. It's a familiar pattern for the fans who have already witnessed how long it takes to overhaul such an advantage by one team. So yes, the FIA need to act sooner rather than later. "Let me answer you: I don't assume that for you, because you definitely don't think so. You don't want dominance, especially from other teams, but you have nothing against it if MB dominates like that. " Well now you've contradicted yourself. First you say you 'don't assume that' but then you immediately went on to assume that I had nothing against Mercedes dominating. What if I told you that your assumption was wrong? What if I told you that I still wanted Mercedes to win, but that I wanted closer racing where there wasn't such a gap out front. Now what? "I know you want the downfall of RB, and that's why their current success and dominance is DEFINITELY difficult for you." I'd rather it was any other team dominating than Red Bull, that is a fact. I wouldn't describe it as 'difficult' for me. I still get up at 4:30am to watch these races. If I was bothered that much about it, I wouldn't bother getting up to watch it. If it was difficult for me, would that please you? Yes I would sleep well if Red Bull left F1 or dropped like a stone like McLaren did. Their day is coming though. "I think this thinking is mutual, it's just that the RB crowd is currently in a better position than the MB crowd." A better position? So that makes it right? That makes it ok? When Merc were dominating, RB fans, as difficult as it was for them, were not getting so much poison and vitriol thrown at them. Merc got mud slung their way from the RB crowd while they dominated and yet again while they are no longer dominating. It's not mutual. The most mud slinging has always come from the RB side and continues to do so. It's just that, as expected, the Merc side fires back and they don't like it. "You're not such a factor in my life, but I'm glad that it's happening after season 21. And guys like you are just icing on the cake for me (you're not the only one, there are plenty of them)." Gotcha. So you claim you're not a troll but you do gloat at the thought of someone else not being happy or that F1 is 'difficult' for them. You're one of those types. Well I wasn't expecting that from you but now I know. You're worse than the trolls and you have disguised it well up to now. You hope for me is clearly that I am miserable when it comes to F1. You don't want me to enjoy the sport. I've clearly harmed you in some way, to the point that you think this way. Yet this is something I've never considered for other people. I don't wish misery on them. RB fans or not, I prefer we can all enjoy the sport and discuss it afterwards. You're quite the nasty piece of work aren't you? Knowing what I know now, maybe we should cut communications. I had you pegged as one of the better people here. Not because we agreed on things (we don't), but because we could still talk. Now that I know that you literally would bask in my unhappiness (that you assume I have), I can no longer see you in the same light. I think I'd rather interact with the run of the mill trolls. At least they're only trying to score points. You should name the other people you hate too so that they know what kind of person you are. A shame I have to cut you off now, but I'm glad you revealed who you really are so that I don't have to engage with you any longer.

@44 I hope that MB's eight-year dominance will never happen again, for any team, is that clear? Since we are in the second year of RB's dominance, if they are the best, I have nothing against it lasting a few more years. Then Ferrari could have a couple of years of dominance, and after that it could finally have Mclaren, so let's have Williams too. MB can do it again after that. He can starts working on the engine now.? My expression is not perfect, I have already written what the reasons are. I don't know what else to call it. But it is so, if you complain about the dominance of RB and call on F1 to stop them already. If it's coming from MB fans, I don't know what to call it because it's actually tragic-comic. 44: "You're presuming that I think that 1 team dominating the sport is a good thing, Do you know this as a fact? Let me answer you: I don't assume that for you, because you definitely don't think so. You don't want dominance, especially from other teams, but you have nothing against it if MB dominates like that. I know you want the downfall of RB, and that's why their current success and dominance is DEFINITELY difficult for you. I guess, am I guessed right? 44: "RB crowd who seek to drag Mercedes and Lewis into the gutter." I think this thinking is mutual, it's just that the RB crowd is currently in a better position than the MB crowd. 44: "You seem to be happy about Red Bull because of me. Is this how it is for you?" You're not such a factor in my life, but I'm glad that it's happening after season 21. And guys like you are just icing on the cake for me (you're not the only one, there are plenty of them). You don't have to do anything, I'm not forcing you and I'm not claiming anything. That's just how they say it, at least with me. And as I think and hope that MB will not be at the top for years to come, that will be the only thing left for you, hope. I'm not claiming, I'm assuming.

Yes you hope dominance won't happen again, but you're also happy that it is happening again. Help me understand that. Or are you saying that you're happy when Mercedes isn't dominating and unhappy when they are? "You are constantly encouraging someone to force you to do something against your will." Such as? Give me examples to back up this random claim. I know I'm not being forced, it's not about force. You're the one saying to be patient. Which, again, is a strange thing to say. "you are advocating that F1 prevent RB" You should choose you're wording a lot better than you are doing now. I am not advocating for anything. It is merely my hope that they do. And where do you get that I am 'complaining, complaining'? Sorry, you had no basis to call it childish at all. "You have enjoyed it for years, and proudly point out all their successes, and now you want to prevent it as soon as possible. Your disagreement and dissatisfaction is welcome and I am very glad that it is happening." Why have you refused to answer my question? I'll ask you again... You're presuming that I think that 1 team dominating the sport is a good thing, Do you know this as a fact? Enjoying wins and poles isn't the same as enjoying sheer domination from a team. Most of the times, I point out Mercedes' successes is to provoke the RB crowd who seek to drag Mercedes and Lewis into the gutter. That's the only reason. I think if the powers that be are going to drag a team down for dominating, then when another team dominates, they should do the same again. So what makes you happier? That Red Bull are dominating or your belief that I'm dissatisfied? You seem to be glad about Red Bull because of me. Is this how it is for you? You need to get off this 'force' thing. You're the only who claimed that I 'HAVE' to be patient, when this is clearly not true.

@44 You don't have to be patient, nobody is forcing you to do anything. I was just telling you that from my own experience. Eight years of MB dominance was way too much, it's never happened before and I hope it won't happen again in the future. But I admit, I like what's going on right now and I hope it lasts for a few more years. I am satisfied. You are constantly encouraging someone to force you to do something against your will. No one is forcing you, there is no need, but it happens. Your comment is childish, because already after the beginning of the second year you are complaining and complaining, and you are advocating that F1 prevent RB. You have enjoyed it for years, and proudly point out all their successes, and now you want to prevent it as soon as possible. Your disagreement and dissatisfaction is welcome and I am very glad that it is happening. Note: Everything written in the comment does not condition or force anyone to do anything.

I don't have to be patient at all. Why do you think you get to set that condition? You're presuming that I think that 1 team dominating the sport is a good thing, Do you know this as a fact? To try out what it's like? What is that supposed to mean? That's like forcing me to carry on eating something I find distasteful in the hope I'll like it in the end. The FIA did move to stop Mercedes' dominance (and Lewis' 8th title through illegal means). I didn't argue whether that was a good or bad thing though. It is merely facts. And the reasons they had for doing so, should now be applied to Red Bull now that the FIA are aware of what happens when F1 becomes predictable. If they weren't willing to see this with Mercedes, then why should they be with Red Bull? Don't worry I wasn't going to discuss Bahrain again, I was just using it as a point for my argument. Explain how my comment was childish.

@44 It was not you who dominated, but MB. I am stating my opinion and you are showing your rationality with your objection about how F1 tried to stop MB's dominance. So my question is not a childish premise, but your comment is childish. Eight years was not enough for you, and you're still complaining, funny. You hope that F1 will soon prevent RB dominance, and the second year has only just begun. You have to be patient for a few more years, to try out what it's like. We've said everything about Behrain, so there's no need to bring it up again. Although it actually brings back fond memories of my favorite season.

Verstappen and Red-Bull did, not the FIA. They won the last season with the old rules, fair and square. But do not worry, the FIA will come to Mercedes help as usual.

They did win 2022 fair and square. With no competition and with rules that favoured them more than any other team. If the FIA were on Mercedes side, we would have seen the correct result for Abu Dhabi 2021, Max penalised for Brazil 2021 and the new rules for 2022 might not even have happened. The FIA are certainly taking their sweet time about 'helping' Mercedes eh? Maybe Red Bull's brown envelope has been thicker over the last few years because it's all certainly gone against Mercedes. With 'help' like that I'd rather not have it. That being said, if something happens to reel Red Bull in, it will more likely be for the good of the sport than helping Mercedes. Because it also benefits Ferrari and Aston.

And what do you think my intent is?

"2022 saw a complete new technical ruleset that clearly has favoured Red Bull, again either by design or by sheer coincidence. For me there are too many coincidences stacking up here". Sounds pretty clear to me... But whatever. You are going to deny your intent again.

Show me where I said that. Copy/paste the line in your next reply. I said the rules favoured Red Bull because they had Newey - I believe that is true. You make out like I stated that the FIA did that deliberately. The reason the FIA made the new rules was to stop Mercs domination.

Spot on! Oh my. You did say that the rules were favouring Reb Bull because of Newey, and brought by the FIA for this reason. Sorry but this is bonkers.

And still you continue to prove my point. That was a bit silly of you. You are literally incapable of discussing or debating any point in the post you're replying to. So, the go-to position for people who can't mount a discussion, is to troll. It's easier isn't it? Don't require as much brain power, as much thought. And this is why you are the way you are. I notice you don't deny what I said either. That's because we both know I'm spot on. If you sounded like your hero, your hero would have to be Ralph Wiggum.

You said exactly that. Me, me, me... you start to sound like your hero.

I didn't say that. You don't pay attention - or you don't want to. You just read what you want to read. See, you're way too focussed on discrediting me or belittling my opinions than you are on actually listening to what's being said. Despite my lengthy post, your short and rather immature reply (which addresses none of it), shows this very clearly. It's also clear you have no scope for discussion and would rather just put me down, because it's me.

Ah ah ah! The FIA went back to ground effect cars because Reb Bull had Newey. That is priceless. Everybody knows that ground effect cars make more sense because the Earth is flat.

I think I have explained that. Many times in many posts. You should go look around. You THINK it's fallacious, but that's very different to it actually being so. So I'll say it one more time just for you. The new rules re-introduced ground effect cars. Those are very different to non ground effect cars. There is one man, one aero guy in that entire paddock who has a history with ground effect cars and even wrote a thesis on it. That man is Adrian Newey and he works for Red Bull. He has always been their ace card and now even more so. Red Bull clearly held the cars where the new rules are concerned. You cannot now look at the results since 2022 and deny that. The stats speak for themselves. No car is as good aerodynamically as the Red Bull. It's been that way for years. And now with ground effect, well now Adrian gets to flourish even more than all of the other teams can. Even the rules in 2021 were tweaked to favour RB more than Mercedes. It's been obvious that the FIA took steps to reign in Mercedes and afford RB a leg up in the process. Even going as far as breaking their own rules to blatantly manipulate a race event and install a new title holder, the moment they got a sniff of it, so that that F1 could financially gain from it and Mercedes would no longer. The FIA will adopt the same attitude to Red Bull if they do what Mercedes did. The pressure from outside to do so will be strong. FIA have no loyalties except to themselves. Abu Dhabi 2021 favoured the FIA because they believed it favoured F1 as a whole to de-throne Lewis and particularly stop him taking that historical 8th title. The FIA's need to do this, played right into Red Bull's hands. Just as the 2022 rules did and their previous engine freeze which was done under false pretences. I've left you enough there for you to find adjectives for. Such as 'ridiculous, ludicrous, absurd' etc. And you'll do that without even properly considering any of it, because you just don't like the sound of it or can't/won't entertain such a possibility. I think we both know the FIA isn't squeaky clean. Tell me why the 2022 rules were even necessary.

You still have not explained how these new rules would favor Red Bull more than others. It is fallacious as I said. "it will more likely be for the good of the sport than helping Mercedes. Because it also benefits Ferrari and Aston." Aston does not need FIA's help thank you very much. They have a good car and a better driver.

You want to know a fallacious argument? This.... "2021? Silverstone, Hungary, spicy engine, illegal wing...". I could, of course, easily counter this silly argument, but it's completely irrelevant here. It's just you trying to poke a stick in place of having an actual counterpoint. How is any of that relevant here? Yes 2022 introduced brand new rules, but then that is also the case for 2014, when the hybrid era began. So I guess no team had an advantage back then either, right? "Aston does not need help by the way, they seem to be doing alright." I didn't say Aston needed help. Where did you get that idea from?

Rules that favored them more than any other team? These were brand new rules for everyone, not an adjustment on the previous car. This argument is fallacious. 2021? Silverstone, Hungary, spicy engine, illegal wing... Aston does not need help by the way, they seem to be doing alright.

To be clear - I am not discrediting Toto. What Mercedes has created over the years is huge. For the dominance they have achieved they deserve to be bowed down. BUT reality has changed, they have lost a large number of key employees, the cost cap and the wind tunnel time limit has changed the rules of the game. Now every mistake is several times more expensive. The past is the past, and now I am evaluating the present and the messages that come from Mercedes, nervous movements, lack of consistency in actions prove that they are lost. Any uncertainty costs the team a lot more than it used to because it doesn't allow you to focus on one path - which is the biggest advantage of RB and now AM. Besides, as one journalist wrote - the timeout in the tunnel hits each team differently - it all depends on the operational approach that clearly works at RB at the highest level. That's why I think Toto's behavior is ridiculous. I don't know why he says that, maybe he has a purpose that I don't understand. I agree with you that this does not seem like a good method of motivating employees. The only reason I can think of is to convince Lewis that they will be back soon and that he will sign a new contract with them. "pathetic" - was the wrong word which I used. too harsh

So we both can agree that Toto's attitude to the challenge his team is facing isn't ideal. Mercedes has had a 57% win rate with Wolff at the helm and this position Merc are in now is new territory for Wolff after so many years of dominance. He needs to handle it better than he is doing because his words and attitude have a trickle-down effect for the entire team. Out of all the people in that team, Wollf needs to be the beacon, not Lewis or George. I think they get to complain all they want. And yes indeed, the cost cap and the wind tunnel time affect things too. Mercedes will enjoy more wind tunnel time than Red Bull this season, but that doesn't mean it's positive. Red Bull don't need as much wind tunnel time as Mercedes to right now anyway. The W13 was so draggy in 2022 it had no pace plus porpoising. The W14, has better pace but, perhaps as a consequence, lacks downforce and on the limit the rear end is on a knife edge. If they can find more pace and settle the rear of that car down, the drivers will find the confidence to push more. And I think that benefits Lewis more than George as I think Lewis can sit the car on that absolute edge with more finesse. But to do that, he needs to be confident in the car and he doesn't have that atm. I don't think this wind tunnel penalty will affect RB in the slightest. Their aero is already better - I think it has been that way for years. And Newey's brain is like a human wind tunnel, so there's that. I think Toto is just naturally frustrated, which is to be expected, but he needs to learn to channel it better for his team's sake. RB have all the cards at the moment. An aero efficient car (particularly with DRS), good top speed (something it lacked in earlier years) and an aero guy with a thesis in ground effects. No wonder Max (and even Sergio) can flourish. RB is enjoying a 1s per lap advantage right now so I think the FIA's idea of the new rules bringing closer racing, didn't include the idea that there would still be 1 team running away from the rest. It wasn't good for the sport when Mercedes were doing it and it isn't good now.

Most likely MB will will have a substantially faster rate of improvement than last year compared to RB (given their starting point, the lack of purposing, and the extra tunnel time), once they introduce the new concept. The question is when are they going to introduce the new car and focus only on it. Actually they should have stopped the development of W14 and their focus should be by now only on the new concept. The ground effect does not favor anybody; it is only that RB has a very talented aerodynamics department lead by Newey. I do not quite appreciate your innuendo as definitely the rules were not designed to help a certain team but rather the show.

I'm not expecting a new car. I don't think they have the budget for such a thing. All they can do is make changes to the one they have. I think they are currently very focussed on this. What new concept are you referring to? "The ground effect does not favor anybody; it is only that RB has a very talented aerodynamics department lead by Newey." Well Mr Newey is the ONLY aero guy in the paddock with extensive knowledge of ground effect cars. He wrote a thesis on it. If you don't think that gives Red Bull an edge, then you're fooling yourself. The results back up what I'm saying. This isn't mere coincidence. It's fine for you to not appreciate my innuendo (more of an insinuation, but whatever). I don't need it to be appreciated. Well, if the rules were designed to help the show, they have massively failed. We still have a scenario in F1 where the race results are as predictable as they were when Mercedes was dominating. 1 team runs away with it and the rest play catchup. So what have the FIA/Liberty fixed? Nothing, except who is doing the leading. And the FIA wanted that changing of the guard and made it happen, both with the teams and with the FIA installing a new title holder in Verstappen. The FIA did that blatantly and deliberately. And that isn't an insinuation. I'm stating that categorically.